August 07, 2005

(Updated) Collect THIS

Eine Kleine Sunday Grouchiness

Note: This post has been updated. Any and all updates appear at the end of the original post.

Is it just our imagination, or at this point is it only the far left and the far right who still view things through the lens and rhetoric of collectivism?

As near as we can tell, we think the rest of us appear to actually have grown up and moved on to a less radical and more realistic representation of political life.

August 7th, 2005 Update

That link may or may not be working properly. It's lifted directly from the anchor on a comment by Rob Kremer, so if it's not working it's something freaky going on with the HTML over there. If it's not linking to where his site says it should be linking, you'll have to scroll down to the comment where the word "collectivism" appears.

Posted at 01:21 PM | PermalinkComments (10) | TrackBacks (0)
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Comments (10)

  1. justin on 07 Aug 2005

    wow, b!x you're linking to a comment you wrote... ...is it really that slow?

  2. The One True b!X on 07 Aug 2005

    That was supposed to go to a Kremer comment, not one of mine. Oops.

  3. The One True b!X on 07 Aug 2005

    Actually, that is the right URL for Kremer's comment, not one to mine. I lifted it right from his comment.

  4. allehseya on 07 Aug 2005

    ...is it really that slow?

    Yes, it is. I need a grant to write. Hire me, someone.

  5. allehseya on 07 Aug 2005

    It's been such poopy Sunday that I actually went over to that site and posted. Of course, it went nowhere (unless you count a vicious circle as progress).

    "People tire me" too.

  6. paul gronke on 07 Aug 2005

    it is just your imagination. the rhetoric of collectivism still plays well in many parts of this country. not in portland. but in kansas? yes.

  7. The One True b!X on 08 Aug 2005

    it is just your imagination. the rhetoric of collectivism still plays well in many parts of this country. not in portland. but in kansas? yes.

    I wasn't speaking about how it played, I was speaking about who uses it. I have no doubt that, for example, when the right in Kansas starts crowing about some collectivist boogeyman, that people fall for it.

  8. The One True b!X on 08 Aug 2005

    (Or, I should say, my intent was to be speaking about who uses it.)

  9. paul gronke on 08 Aug 2005

    b!x,
    I still don't think you get it. It's not that people "fall for it" as if they are deceived. They believe it.

    My answer to your question--do only the far right and far left wing view things through the rhetoric of collectivism--is "no."

    There are still millions of Americans who view politics through this lens. I suppose they may be cast as "far right", but it's wrong (in my view) to think of them as fringe, wacko, or out of the American mainstream.

  10. Rob Kremer on 09 Aug 2005

    b!x:
    Well, I appreciate your patronizing dismissal ("we think the rest of us appear to actually have grown up and moved on ...") but REAL grown-ups actually try to refute arguments with logical counterarguments rather than just avoiding the issue by characterizing the other side as children.

    So, I'll ask: why is it incorrect to characterize the political left as collectivist?

    The collectivist world-view, I'll assert, is one in which, on balance, supports the dimunition of individual property rights for the benefit of a larger group (the collective.)

    Policy after policy supported by the political left in Oregon and the U.S. is accurately described as collectivist. Everything from redistribution of wealth VIA the tax code to the Portland takeover of PGE to land use laws that prohibit development on landowner's property in order to cater to the aesthetic preferences of those in charge.

    I fully understand why you chafe when the political left's policies are described as collectivist, because most people understand that collectivism, at its core, is both logically and morally bankrupt, as evidenced by the astounding success of virtually every society ever organized under its banner.

    So when the policies and philosophies of the political left are described as a variant of that same failed world-view, I can certainly understand why you cringe.

    But you're gunna have to do better than just dismiss those who point it out, if you want to be taken seriously.

    So, here's your chance: what are the fundamental differences between the philosophies of current day "liberalism" and the collectivist world-view?