February 20, 2004

(Updated) Fight Over Gay Marriage Comes To Oregon

Four Proposed Initiatives Filed With The Secretary Of State

Note: This post has been updated. Any and all updates appear at the end of the original post.

Our voicemail this morning presented a heads-up from Bob Richardson (which, as it turns out, was echoed by his recent spouse) to watch KGW's midday news. Why? It seems some ballot initiatives were filed Thursday here in Oregon against gay marriage.

And indeed, you can read the story via KGW's website:

Opponents of gay marriage have filed four versions of a proposed initiative that would prevent Oregon from recognizing gay marriages performed in another state.
...
Although four initiatives were filed with the state Elections Division on Thursday, it is likely that proponents will seek to put only one on the ballot. Initiative proponents often file different versions of the same initiative, hoping to get the most favorable language in the ballot title.

If any of the initiatives receive enough signatures, they will appear on the Oregon ballot this November. According to KGW, two of the initiatives are statutory, "which need 75,630 valid signatures," while the other two are constitutional, "which require 100,840 signatures."

We checked the official log of initiatives, referendums, and referrals, and indeed four such initiatives were filed yesterday. Let's go through them, briefly for now.

(It should be noted that if you search for the keyword "Marriage" nothing comes up. If you want to see their listings in the log, run a search with no keywords at all and then scroll down on the results page.)

First up is the Defense Of Marriage Amendment (pdf), one of the two constitutional iniatives. You can also read its draft ballot title (pdf) and comments form (pdf).

Second is the Affirmation Of Marriage Constitutional Amendment (pdf), the other of the two constitutional initiatives You can also read its draft ballot title (pdf), and comments form (pdf).

Third is the Affirmation Of Mariage Act (pdf), the first of the two statutory initiatives. You can also read its draft ballot title and comments form.

Fourth and finally is the Defense Of Marriage Act (pdf), the other of the two statutory initiatives. You can also read its draft ballot title and comments form (pdf).

Chief petitioners for all four initiatives are Kent Walton of Portland, Thomas S. Harrison IV of Oregon City, and Kelly W. Boggs of McMinnville. Comments on the initiatives are due by March 12, 2004.

"This is an unfortunate and mean-spirited attempt to divide people in Oregon, to deny gay and lesbian people and their families important civil rights," says Roey Thorpe, executive director of Basic Rights Oregon, in the KGW story. "And it smacks of political opportunism."

And on the KGW story just aired (wmv), the following statement was passed along from petitioner Kelly W. Boggs:

Given the fact that Oregon is one of 12 states that haven't affirmed traditional marriage, we just feel it's prudent that the voters should have a say in the issue.

And what's newly-married (thanks to San Francisco) Bob Richardson's comment on this development? Here's his statement via telephone moments ago:

It's important to realize that no church and no religion is being forced to perform gay marriage or forced to prohibit it. As to what is sanctified, that is up to the individuals getting married. It's between them and their god and their church.
State marriage is an arrangement between two persons and the state, and these things are separate.
To go the extra step of codifying in the Constitution the taking away of rights from people violates the spirit of the Constitution.
I'm sure there are married couples out there whose families have disapproved of their marriage. But how would you feel if someone could pass a law to take that marriage away from you?

Offhand, we can't think of anything more directly correct than the above. So Bob gets the last word.

February 20, 2004

Update

Now that we've downloaded the texts of the various initiatives, we can pass along what each one says.

Defense of Marriage Amendment:

The Oregon Constitution is amended by the addition of the following provision:
Only a marriage between one man and one woman shall be valid or recognized as a marriage in this state. A legal status identical or substantially similar to that of a marriage for unmarried individuals shall not be valid or recognized in this state.

Affirmation of Marriage Amendment:

106.010 Marriage as a civil contract; age of parties. Marriage is a civil contract entered into in person by one male at least 17 years of age and one female at least 17 years of age, who are otherwise capable; and solemnized in accordance with ORS 106.150.

Affirmation of Marriage Act:

ORS 106.010 shall be amended to read:
106.010 Marriage as a civil contract; age of parties. Marriage is a civil contract entered into in person by one male at least 17 years of age and one female at least 17 years of age, who are otherwise capable; and solemnized in accordance with ORS 106.150.

Defense of Marriage Act:

Be it enacted by the People of the State of Oregon:
Only a marriage between one man and one woman shall be valid or recognized as a marriage in this state. A legal status identical or substantially similar to that of a marriage for unmarried individuals shall not be valid or recognized in this state.

A few comments are required. First, someone got these mixed up. It's seems to be clear (unless we're misreading something) that what is called the Defense of Marriage Act on the Secretary of State website is actually meant to be one of the constitutional initiatives, not one of the statutory ones. And what is called the Affirmation of Marriage Amendment appears instead to be a statutory initiative, and not a constitutional one. Not sure what's up with this.

More importantly, looking at the initiatives meant to be constitutional, their texts clearly indicate that the petitioners are targeting not only gay marriage but civil unions as well. Hopefully, media reporting on these initiatives will bother to point that out.

Feburary 20, 2004

Update

Also note that the fact that the constitutional initiatives also ban civil unions directly undercuts petitioner Kelly W. Boggs' assertion that this is merely about giving Oregon voters a chance to have a say on the issue of affirming traditional marriage. So we already have the first indication not only that homophobes are descending upon this year's election, but that they are perfectly willing (as if this were a surprise) to mischaracterize what they are doing.

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Comments (76)

  1. Matty on 20 Feb 2004

    Oh goody, another right wing inititave we get to fight against!

    Sadly they'll probably find 100,000 people to sign it, and we'll have to allocate recources that should go to getting Bush out of office to fight this latest attempt at state sanctioned bigotry.

  2. no one in particular on 20 Feb 2004

    Maybe I'm being overly optimistic here, but things like this feel like homophobes just hoping to fight off the inevitible a little longer.

    Between San Francisco, Massachusetts, New Mexico, ... This isn't going away. It may take a while long before most states have it, but gay marriage is coming, and there's nothing they can do to stop it anymore. It's got the momentum now.

    I'm so fucking excited (and I'm not even gay!) Watching conservatives squirm is so much fun!

  3. borus yelshing on 29 Feb 2004

    If gays knew the truth about being gay, they would not affirm marriage or be proavtive; in fact, 50% of them would be in treatment and most would eventually be heterosexual, a healthier lifestyle. Being gay is not genetic and can be a choice, with the proper knowledge and treatment which has notihing to do with politics.

  4. Mary Ormbrek on 02 Mar 2004

    I am replying to the last comment made. I am a lesbian. I didn't choose this lifestyle. People are who they are plain and simple! I am also an american and first and fore most. If I decide to marry my partner one day. I should have just as much right as anyone else does! As a society we need to seperate chruch and state. They are two different thing's completely. I know many republicans and conservatives that could care less. They are infact more interested in our enconomy and could care less. That gays and lesbians want to marry!

  5. Mary Ormbrek on 02 Mar 2004

    I am replying to the last comment made. I am a lesbian. I didn't choose this lifestyle. People are who they are plain and simple! I am also an american and first and fore most. If I decide to marry my partner one day. I should have just as much right as anyone else does! As a society we need to seperate chruch and state. They are two different thing's completely. I know many republicans and conservatives that could care less. They are infact more interested in our enconomy and could care less. That gays and lesbians want to marry!

  6. Reverend Angel Goulet on 02 Mar 2004

    I am a straight 43 year old mother of a (so far as I know so far)"straight" 10 year old boy. I am also a Reverend. Marriage is a HUMAN right. As far as I can see, gays are human. Get real, people. What are you afraid of? I would be proud to marry any gay couple who came to me. I am on YOUR side.

  7. someone who lives here too - and has for years on 02 Mar 2004

    "This is an unfortunate and mean-spirited attempt to divide people in Oregon, to deny gay and lesbian people and their families important civil rights."

    Hmm. . . .

    Who's being devisive here? Those pushing something in which hasn't been legitimized ever before in the history of this country, or those simply trying to hold the line on what they believe and which HAS been legitimized by thousands of years of human practice - heterosexual union leading to STABLE families?

    Think through the logic of this statement (for a change)!

  8. Cody on 03 Mar 2004

    I'm pretty sure that gay people are the only ones who know the real truth about being gay. The truth is it's not easy to be gay in this world and no one would choose to be degraded and slandered as much as we are. We're not asking for pity or help to cure us. All we want is to be accepted as we are. I don't think I'm going to hell just because I love another human being who has the same sex organs I do.

  9. Cody on 03 Mar 2004

    I'm pretty sure that gay people are the only ones who know the real truth about being gay. The truth is it's not easy to be gay in this world and no one would choose to be degraded and slandered as much as we are. We're not asking for pity or help to cure us. All we want is to be accepted as we are. I don't think I'm going to hell just because I love another human being who has the same sex organs I do.

  10. Jooniper on 03 Mar 2004

    Whether or not you think that gays should be allowed gay marriage, why are you afraid to let the people vote on it? Last time I checked this is still a democracy.

  11. the mama on 03 Mar 2004

    I am so very proud to be a citizen of Multnomah County today. If we have to vote on this issue in November, so be it. But whatever happens, today is a very good day for my community, and for so many who have been able to publicly declare a committment they made that is just the same as my own marital commitment.

  12. sooncanadian on 03 Mar 2004

    Democracy? This is a Republic, not a democracy. If it were a democracy, the number of votes would elect the offical. "Activist judges" were good guys to repubs back when they annointed King George. And even if it were, if we waited around for slave owners to see the err of their ways, I would've inherited 100 people as my very own. Luckily people fought and died to change things and the constitution was amended to qualify an African American as a whole human rather than 3/5 human as it was stated when it was written by our forefathers. They weren't all that.

  13. Witch Baby on 03 Mar 2004

    How silly we were, so many years ago, to use colored people as slaves. we look back and think, how could someone to that to another human? couldn't they see, they were all the same as us? they have feelings, they feel love, they feel pain. just like everyone else. we look back and think we were stupid for being racist.
    Yet to this day, people refuse to accept Gay and Lesbian marriages. you know, in a few hundred years, when being Gay is encouraged and not shunned, we will probably look back and think, God, we were stupid. How could we not accept someone for being different? they are still human...
    ***
    If you believe in God, or argue your homophobic point with the Bible, just understand-- God created us. God loves everyone. If he didn't want there to be homosexuality, he wouldn't have created Gay people.

  14. susank on 03 Mar 2004

    A reponse to Rev. Angel Goulet's quote: "what... HAS been legitimized by thousands of years of human practice - heterosexual union leading to STABLE families"

    Brittany Spear's marriage to a male certainly did not lead to a more stable family than Phyllis Lyon and Del Martin's. They had been together for 51 years before they were the first gay couple to be married in SF. You might also note, using the logic of your statement, that recent history is "de-legitimizing" heterosexual unions. With heterosexual divorce rates at 50% in this country, those families aren't exactly "stable."

    --married hetero female from a divorced hetero family.

  15. susank on 03 Mar 2004

    My appologies, the quote was posted by "someone who lives here too - and has for years at March 2, 2004 10:55 PM" not Rev Angel Goulet.

  16. solara on 03 Mar 2004

    Same-sex marriage has been legal in Canada for many months now. And imagine - Canadian society hasn't fallen apart, heterosexuals haven't stopped getting married. . .marriage hasn't ceased to exist. The institution of marriage is still there, still protected, with only one difference - now it is more powerful as it is open to ALL of society. That increases the respect for it. Our American thinking is so far behind sometimes. "Protect the 'sanctity' of marriage" Bush says. Hmmmm... 50% of heterosexuals don't seem to protect the sanctity of it given the divorce rate. Maybe homosexuals will respect the sanctity of it more. Likely.

  17. KimChee on 03 Mar 2004

    >If you believe in God,
    I do.

    > or argue your homophobic point with the Bible,
    So I'm homophobic because I disagree with your viewpoint?

    > just understand-- God created us. God loves everyone.
    I understand this and agree (the Bible also teaches this).

    > If he didn't want there to be homosexuality, he wouldn't have created Gay people.
    Where is the proof of this? God gave people the agency to choose their behavior. Why ascribe to God the responsibility for one's choice?

    KC

  18. jooniper on 03 Mar 2004

    Amen, KC. The difference between racism and gay issues is this: black people don't choose to be black. The people who hated blacks never thought that the blacks had a choice in the matter. The difference here is that people who fight against Gay marriage do believe that there is agency involved. Whether agency is involved or not isn't my point; the point is you can't liken racism to those who are against homosexuals. It's a different battle, because one side's fundemental belief is that the whole thing is based on CHOICE. And as long as one side believes that, and the other side plays victims instead of agents of action, no agreement will ever be reached.

  19. someone who lives here too - and has for years on 03 Mar 2004

    "The fundamental principle of our Consititution . . . enjoins that the will of the majority shall prevail." - George Washington

    "The will of the majority [is] the natural law of every society [and] is the only sure guardian of the rights of man. Perhaps even this may sometimes err. But its errors are honest, solitary and short-lived. Though the will of the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will, to be rightful, must be reasonable; [and] the minority possess their equal rights which equal law must protect." - Thomas Jefferson

    "While the minority is not to prevail over the majority, the minority, with its constitutional guarantee of "free speech," does have the equal right to attempt to persuade the majority to its point of view. However, "equal right" is not the same as "equal power"; the minority is NEVER the equivalent of the majority and is never to exercise control over it." - David Barton

  20. The One True b!X on 03 Mar 2004

    "The Constitution allows each generation to expand the terrain of freedom." -- Justice Anthony Kennedy

    "Civil rights trumps majority rule." - Me

  21. Witches Brew on 04 Mar 2004

    All of those fundamentalist-comments about marriage being for heterosexuals only is just witches brew! It is discrimination at its very core. "Heterosexual marriage" leads to stable families! Where has this Rev. been living?? Not only do 50% of marriages end in divorce, but in those divorces most of the women lose their community property, in a corrupt, unsupervised system. Gays will change the system, because they will not silently put up with the injustices. Stable marriages...what a laugh! I am heterosexual. I live in the heterosexual community of people who are married, "for better or worse." Many who are still married would not be IF they didn't have to go through divorce. Come on people, we were all created in God's image. Give everyone a chance at individual rights without discrimination. All "religious" people should avoid the "witches brew" and not deny people their rights.

  22. More Witches Brew on 04 Mar 2004

    Who is that person, in New York's officialdom who is stuck in the witches brew at the moment. Forget him, if he is not state level--go to Niagara Fall, N.Y. Invite all of your friends and relatives to see Niagara Falls while they see you get married! What a wonderful way to see the Falls! Wow!

  23. genesis on 04 Mar 2004

    The point is there needs to be a vote on it.

  24. genesis on 04 Mar 2004

    The point is people should have the right to vote on this important issue.

  25. The One True b!X on 04 Mar 2004

    The point is people should have the right to vote on this important issue.

    Actually, no. The point is that the courts need to definitively recognize that this is a fundamental civil rights issue, and homosexual couples cannot be discriminated against, in this case when it comes to secular and civil marriage as defined and licensed by the state.

    Rights are rights, regardless of whether they happen to be popular. Equality is equality, regardless of whether people are prejudiced.

  26. Witches Brew on 04 Mar 2004

    Let's stay out of the Witches Brew! A human being is a human being is a human being. ALL human beings should be equal under the law. We cannot make exceptions, because one human is a human being and one human is some distant relative of some other species. ALL human beings must have equal rights under the law or we must wonder if we have fully emerged from medieval times.

    Okay, so we want to help the Iraq people establish democracy, but we are going to tell them: "but...you DO understand that we Americans believe that ALL PEOPLE are NOT equal." Oh, please do not be so stupid, my fellow Americans, and fall into the witches brew!!! I KNOW you are too smart for that! I am not homosexual, but I am not going to puff up my chest and pretend I am better...simply because I am not. I am merely equal. So is EVERY homosexual. So let us open up ALL of our brains...and fight together for what is right.

  27. Witches Brew on 04 Mar 2004

    My daughter,who lives in Madison, Wisconsin wants to know why there are no marriage being performed in Madison,which is know as Berkeley of the midwest! In fact, why are none happening in Berkeley? Is there anyone out there with answers????

  28. Witches Brew on 04 Mar 2004

    Quote from the news: "If any of the initiatives receive enough signatures, they will appear on the Oregon ballot this November."
    It is only March. Everyone who wants to get married could be married by that time! Let nothing stop you, because everyone in the United States of American is EQUAL under the law. That is why our country is so GREAT. That is what our country is all about and it is far to late to bow out now...just because you have a deep, insane prejudice about people having slightly different genes. Oh come on YOU, my fellow Americans, can measure up. Please do not fall into the Witches Brew. I know that most of you will not. It is just unfortunate that the minority that will, or may, is so vociferous. Let us try to be gentle with them while we teach them that equality is equality is equality. We cannot have different meanings for this word for some humans and not for others. Also, don't forget that the WORLD is watching US.

  29. Witches Brew on 04 Mar 2004

    Corrections: My daughter,who lives in Madison, Wisconsin wants to know why there are no marriages being performed in Madison,which is known as the Berkeley of the midwest! In fact, why are none happening in Berkeley? Is there anyone out there with answers????

  30. Witches Brew on 04 Mar 2004

    I just sent this message to our state senators and our Congressman.: I am writing to urge you to actively OPPOSE AMENDING the U.S. Constitution to permanently deny the crucial and fundamental civil right of marriage to gay and lesbian couples. This anti-marriage and anti-family initiative would institutionalize discrimination and harm gay families by withholding from them critical protections such as hospital visitation rights, health care benefits, parenting, pension and inheritance rights, just to name a few.

    Furthermore, I am requesting your support for future initiatives that would allow couples the choice of same-sex marriages without barriers, prohibitions or outright bans. There is no good reason for government supported sex DISCRIMINATION in marriage today, just as there was no good reason for race discrimination in marriage a generation ago.

  31. straight eye for the queer guy on 06 Mar 2004

    I am not religious nor am I gay. I have been raised around homosexuals throughout my life and I'm glad that they are happy with who they are and what they do. I could care less if gays want to live together and be "life-partners" but that's where it needs to stay.

    It is natural for males and females to be attracted to the opposite sex. In every walk of life...nature tends to follow that pattern.

    I do believe that in some cases, some people's genes are a bit screwed up and they are attracted to members of the same sex. Although......in most cases, people made this decision when they were very young because of some weird incident in their life.

    What I'm getting at is that if gay marriages were where it stopped then I wouldn't really mind but they will soon try to adopt and have families more than they already do. It is not healthy to raise a child in those surroundings. I know that many hetero families need help but look at the number of hetero families vs. gay families.

    Also, does anyone remember the 19th amendment? If not, it was to let women have the right to vote. Only men could vote and it passed. How about we put this gay marriage thing to a vote and let the nation vote on it? This one would be a bit more fair considering the gays get to vote on it too.

    So why must all of you hippie liberal's preach to everyone? That's like people standing on the street corner with a sign that says "God loves you" or getting mad at people for believing in the right to choose (abortion). Keep an open mind and quit preaching because in the next year or four...it will be legal.

    I live in Multnomah County and I donít appreciate the way that people went behind other people's back to "legalize" these marriages. I'm just very disappointed in the way "officials" have acted these past few days.

    Oh, and KC....you were right on the money with what you said. For any of you who happen to have a relationship with God, homosexuality is not something that God has "blessed" we humans with. He (God) gave us the power to choose. It is our own free will that will determine our fate when we meet our maker.


    Sorry I wrote a book.

    -Drew

  32. pdxkona on 06 Mar 2004

    >Also, does anyone remember the 19th amendment? If not, it was to let women have the right to vote. Only men could vote and it passed. How about we put this gay
    >marriage thing to a vote and let the nation vote on it? This one would be a bit more fair considering the gays get to vote on it too.

    Er...read a history book. "The nation" never voted on anything. That's not how the founding fathers set up this nation to work, and that's not how we work now.
    And yes, this is Democracy. Shoulda payed attention to voting for your last Representative, ay?

  33. Witches Brew on 06 Mar 2004

    Drew's quote:
    "Keep an open mind and quit preaching because in the next year or four...."
    No, Drew, you didn't write a book! YOU were preaching! If you are going to tell people NOT to PREACH....then don't do it yourself, please.

    It never fails while, arrogantly, some person is telling others not to PREACH, that person is PREACHING at you.

    ....take note!

  34. Witches Brew on 06 Mar 2004

    Drew's quote:
    "Keep an open mind and quit preaching because in the next year or four...."
    No, Drew, you didn't write a book! YOU were preaching! If you are going to tell people NOT to PREACH....then don't do it yourself, please.

    It never fails...while, arrogantly, some person is telling others not to PREACH, that person is PREACHING at you.

    ....take note!

  35. lisha on 06 Mar 2004

    The people using God, religion and bible as an argument against homosexual marriage are arrogant for attempting to play God.

    What happened to "judge not lest ye be judged' ?
    And why do these religious folks fail to trust God to make his judgements when these sinful gay people die?

    On top of that, why are these folks *so* convinced that they're right? Different members of the same religion disagree on the issue of gay marriage. They all follow the same God - so which human being really knows what God wants?

    NEITHER ONE.

    And I can't believe it isn't considered sacrilegious for people to claim that THEY KNOW the WILL OF GOD so completely and confidently that they are willing to discriminate (and even act hatefully) against other human beings.

    The bottom line is that religion has absolutely no bearing on the public debate around gay marriage. We do not live in a religious state and the major religion (Christianity) technically has no more importance or influence in public policy than voo-doo or paganism.

  36. Chelsea on 06 Mar 2004

    Im so estatic that Portland has taken the initiative to let both men and women make the free choice to officialy bond their relationships despite sexual preference. I strongly support gay marriages and I think that we as Oregonians musn't lay down and let these opposers take away our free choice!

  37. straight eye for the queer guy on 06 Mar 2004

    pdxkona: You got what I meant though. The 19th Amendment was put to a vote and men voted in favor for it....I think we should do the same for this gay marriage thing instead of people going behind other people's backs and finding silly loop-holes or whatever else is the case.

    Witches Brew: I stated my opinions and you stated yours...I don't believe "preaching" was in anyway involved. Although, I did like what you had to say :)

    lisha: I loved what you had to say and I hope to hear more of your comments.


    -Drew

  38. The One True b!X on 06 Mar 2004

    The 19th Amendment was put to a vote and men voted in favor for it....I think we should do the same for this gay marriage thing instead of people going behind other people's backs and finding silly loop-holes or whatever else is the case.

    Article I, section 20, of the Oregon Constitution is not a loophole, silly or otherwise.

  39. lisha on 07 Mar 2004

    "What I'm getting at is that if gay marriages were where it stopped then I wouldn't really mind but they will soon try to adopt and have families more than they already do. It is not healthy to raise a child in those surroundings. I know that many hetero families need help but look at the number of hetero families vs. gay families."

    - Elaborate? What is the number of hetero families vs gay families supposed to indicate? That there is a higher rate of familial dysfunction in hetero families simply because there are more of them?

    Why is it unhealthy to raise a child in a same-sex household? All the legitimate research I can find on the subject says otherwise. The American Academy of Pediatrics endorses the adoption of children into gay families (U.S. News & World Report, 2/18/2002, Vol. 132 Issue 5, p54, 1p).

    The American Psychological Association (APA) reports that "not a single study has found children of gay or lesbian parents to be disadvantaged in any significant respect relative to children of heterosexual parents. Indeed, the evidence to date suggests that home environments provided by gay and lesbian parents are as likely as those provided by heterosexual parents to support and enable children's psychosocial growth."
    APA. 'Lesbian and gay parenting: a resource for psychologists.' 8. (1995).

    Somebody show me some real evidence to the contrary. I can't find any, anywhere. The only opposing evidence I can find isn't evidence; it's just lame hypothesis and conjecture or somehow based on the bible.

    -Alicia

  40. straight eye for the queer guy on 07 Mar 2004

    "Marriage is a civil contract entered into in person by males at least 17 years of age and females at least 17 years of age, who are otherwise capable."

    The loop-hole is in the above and not in Article I, section 20.

    Alicia: Thank you for posting your comments :) I did do a little research and you are completely right about everything you have found. I was stating my opinion, and even though I will stand by what I said, I have found no studies proving me right. As I said before, I loved what you had to say and I hope to hear more of your comments.

    I've done a lot of thinking today. My initial reaction to gay marriages was a bit harsh but I have no reason to be anything but happy for these people. I don't even know why I would be against it in the first place. It doesn't harm or even directly affect me. Is this a retraction from what I said earlier? No. I stand by what I said. I just want everyone to know that my mind has changed (for the better I hope) a little bit.

    -Drew

  41. The One True b!X on 07 Mar 2004

    The loop-hole is in the above and not in Article I, section 20.

    Sigh, ok, let me start again. You said, referring to what the County did:

    I think we should do the same for this gay marriage thing instead of people going behind other people's backs and finding silly loop-holes or whatever else is the case.

    Now, yes I understand that you were referring to the statutory definition of marriage. But that statutory definition of marriage isn't the thing in which the County's decision was rooted. While the County does mention what is technically a loophole in the statutory definition of marriage, the County Attorney's legal opinion is actually rooted in Article I, section 20, of the Oregon Constitution.

    I was being snarky because you comment about going behind people's backs and finding "silly loopholes" was an inaccurate description of what happened.

  42. straight eye for the queer guy on 07 Mar 2004

    That 5th commissioner had no say in what happened and they went behind his back to rule that gay marriages were legal. Nothing major, but behind his back nonetheless.

    I do understand that they based their decision off of Article I, section 20 but it was the loop-hole that started it all. I call it a "silly" loop-hole because it was so blatant that it probably should have been brought up a long time ago.

    I do still wish it was all brought to a vote.


    -Drew

  43. Karen on 08 Mar 2004

    I would just like to ask gays & lesbians...have you looked in the Bible lately to see what it states about your lifestyle? Romans 1:24-32 clearly states that you will be put to death because you chose to live a life that is not natural and in accordance with Biblical teachings. I am truly disappointed in all of the so-called pastors that I've seen over the past several days performing these illegal marriages, and I'm sure God isn't happy either. But, he'll soon end it ALL!

  44. lisha on 08 Mar 2004

    Karen -

    Have you looked in the Quran lately to see what it states about your lifestyle? Alfatiha 1:7 clearly states that you will be put to death because you chose to live a life that is not natural and in accordance with Islamic teachings. I am truly disappointed in your infidelity and ignorance. I'm sure Allah is too. But he'll soon end it ALL!

    You better stop driving and voting and start covering your eyes and ankles. Mark my words, you will burn.

    Alicia

    (Note from the editor: satire.)

  45. straight eye for the queer guy on 08 Mar 2004

    Karen-

    Have you looked at the Bible lately to see what it says about repenting? Funny how God's a pretty forgiving guy don't you think? Just a thought :)


    -Drew

  46. Karen on 08 Mar 2004

    Yes, God is very forgiving, but the Bible states at Heb 10:26 that we must not practice sin willfully after having received knowledge of the truth. If we do so, we will be judged to death.

  47. lisha on 08 Mar 2004

    I really want to understand where you're coming from, Karen. Please answer the following questions so that I can really understand and consider your responses.

    1) Should citizens of the United States be legally mandated to follow Christianity?

    2) Are you a prophet from God? If not, why is your interpretation of the bible more valid than the interpretation of some priests and pastors?

    3) Please comment on Deut. 7:3-4 "Do not intermarry with them.... for they will turn your sons away from following me to serve other gods.... " which is commonly interpreted as a prohibition of inter-racial marriage.
    Do you accept this interpretation?

    Thanks sincerely,
    Alicia

  48. straight eye for the queer guy on 08 Mar 2004

    Pretty contradicting if you ask me. The Bible tells you that if you have love for God and repent, He will forgive you of all sins...then it tells you otherwise? Silly book. Then again, humans wrote it, and we all know that nobody's perfect.

    Wait a second....if nobody's perfect, and humans wrote the bible (first told word-of-mouth for 500 or so years before put to text), then wouldn't some of the Bible be a little bit of what we like to call these days "a whopper?" You know..."I once caught a fish THIS BIG!" An urban legend some might say.

    Open your mind a little bit and look at it from the other side. The Good Book is a great reference at times, but at other times it has no place.

    -Drew

    P.S. Sorry if I made anyone mad, these are mostly just opinions and should be taken lighthearted.

  49. Reverend Angel Goulet on 09 Mar 2004

    I am Rev Angel Goulet. I am for kids 'rights and human rights. Someone misquoted me in a previous comment. Please know that the quote was not mine. I am for equality for gays & lesbians. I am also very passionate about kids' rights to be with their dads and abolishing the practice by the courts to allow custodial moms to move away and destroy the bond between dads and their kids.

  50. Reverend Angel Goulet on 09 Mar 2004

    Karen,
    Your quote of "Yes, God is very forgiving, but the Bible states at Heb 10:26 that we must not practice sin willfully after having received knowledge of the truth. If we do so, we will be judged to death."
    I believe God is more angry at those who hurt other people, or their children (by not doing what's in their best interest) than He is angry at gays for loving one another. Get real.
    All I can say is, I hope to God that you aren't fornicating (having sex before marriage, lying to the boss or school about being sick for the day, defiling the "temple of God" (your body) with alcohol, junk food, and the like. I hope you too won't be "judged to death" since you have knowledge of those "truths."

  51. straight eye for the queer guy on 09 Mar 2004

    Reverend Angel Goulet-

    You are a wonderful person and I have much respect for you. I also hope you did not take offense to what I said in my previous post because it was to [hopefully] open minds rather than to anger people. Have a nice day and keep up the good work.


    -Drew

  52. Hope Rising on 09 Mar 2004

    I have a friend, a lesbian, who is one of the sweetest people i know. She is sixteen, very beautiful, very pure. She captures nature on film and shares it with the world, writes beautiful poetry, and has a girlfriend who is equally kind and giving.

    Too bad they will be
    "judged to death" for their sins.

  53. Karen on 09 Mar 2004

    Alicia,

    Answers.

    Q1: Absurd.

    Q2: Sarcastic.

    Q3: Don't see the connection, but funny how gays always try to work in the interracial angle in this argument.

  54. Karen on 09 Mar 2004

    Alicia,

    Answers.

    Q1: Absurd.

    Q2: I'm sensing sarcasm here.

    Q3: I don't see the connection, but funny how the gay community always try to work in the interracial angle on this issue.

  55. Karen on 09 Mar 2004

    Rev Goulet,

    I seemed to have touched a nerve. I find it funny that you've interpreted the Bible in your own special way to fit your belief system regarding gays & lesbians.

    McDonald's fries and homosexual marriages, I didn't know they were equal sins in the eyes of God. Get Real.

    How many gay & lesbian couples have you married thus far?

  56. straight eye for the queer guy on 10 Mar 2004

    Karen-


    Your answers to Alicia's questions weren't even answers.

    I think I might have a good idea though on what you meant. Here goes:

    1) You think it is absurd that citizens of the United States be legally mandated to follow Christianity. So then why would we have to look to the Bible at all for answers on the gay marriage topic?

    2) It also sounds to me like Alicia may have been hinting at a little bit of sarcasm. She did bring up a good point though...how is your interpretation of the Bible better than those who have actually studied the book? How are your views better than those who have dedicated their lives to the Church?

    3) How do you not see a connection? I mean...what "gays" have tried to work any interracial angle into anything? Are you really that much of a bigot or did I just misread something? The question Alicia asked was simple.....Are interracial marriages acceptable?

    Also, Reverend Goulet said nothing of McDonalds fries. Since you seem to have a comprehension problem, how about you go back and re-read before you post again.

    Yours truly,

    Drew

  57. lisha on 10 Mar 2004

    "I find it funny that you've interpreted the Bible in your own special way to fit your belief system regarding gays & lesbians."

    Karen, you've interpreted the bible in your own special way (or gone ahead and followed someone else's own special interpretation) to fit your belief system regarding gays and lesbians. (Unless you are a prophet sent from God.) I don't understand how you can throw that accusation at Rev. and fail to see your own hypocrisy.

    The question about interracial marriages is relevant because the bible expressly prohibits it in more than one passage. However, with the change of the times, people have chosen not to take those biblical teachings literally. This brings up the *very* relevant question of how you decide which biblical teachings to take literally and which not to.

    Furthermore, Drew catches on quite well to the follow-up from the question about legally mandating christianity. You obviously don't think that everyone should be required to follow christianity, you think it is absurd. Why then, despite that, do you think that all citizens should follow the word of God regarding this particular issue solely?

    Maybe I have misunderstood you and what you really meant was that you think that gays and lesbians are free to marry under secular law and you support freedom of choice and religion in the USA but that you believe they will suffer for it after death, and as a good Christian, you merely feel that it is your duty to try to inform them of this so that they have an opportunity to know about and choose God.

    Am I right? Wrong?
    Please articulate.

    Thanks
    Alicia

  58. Allen Bennett on 10 Mar 2004

    I guess the right wingers have proven once again that I am stupid and immoral. ahahahahhahahahahahahhahahahahahahhaha
    Love, Satan
    Call me and chat about Gay Marriage and why you think it should NOT be pursued. Let's leave all Bible quotes outta this so I can digest my food.

  59. Allen Bennett on 10 Mar 2004

    Oooops. 503-289-0624
    Feel lucky and smart? Debate me!
    Don't be shy!

  60. Karen on 10 Mar 2004

    Drew,

    You seem to be screaming for attention and at the same time have an ability to read minds and know what people really mean.

    Wow! What a gift.

    No need for me to answer your questions Drew. You already know the answers. LOL.......

  61. lisha on 10 Mar 2004

    Karen:
    Do I get a response from you regarding my last post?

    lisha

  62. Witches Brew on 11 Mar 2004

    Well...we've gotten a whole mess of "religion" added to the Witches Brew!! Isn't it amazing how we can exploit religion for any selfish purposes and opinions. It has been done throughout history in the most hypocritical situations. Now, unknowingly, we are on a crusade to outdo the Crusades! Do you get my drift?

  63. grrlszgrrl on 11 Mar 2004

    Is ANYONE concerned about the 17 year olds that ARE allowed to marry each other in Oregon? If I were really concerned about the state of our society, as claimed by all those homophobes out there, I would file an intiative that got that off the books! And hurray for the poster who pointed out that The US is NOT a democracy! Still, I have faith in the system that we have that has worked mostly well for over 200 years. So, let them try to get enough signatures to put this on the ballot. I wonder if they really hate the idea of gay marraige or the idea that marraige could actually be an egalitarian institution. My feeling is that it goes beyond gays and their rights but goes straight to the heart of domination. Marriage hasn't changed for centuries- it's still an institution of slavery that gays threaten to destroy. Of course these bigots hate the idea!

  64. Witches Brew on 12 Mar 2004

    Here it the core of the problem, as stated by the poster above:
    "I wonder if they really hate the idea of gay marriage or the idea that marraige could actually be an egalitarian institution. My feeling is that it goes beyond gays and their rights but goes straight to the heart of domination. Marriage hasn't changed for centuries- it's still an institution of slavery that gays threaten to destroy. Of course these bigots hate the idea!"
    I have been wanting to express the same idea myself. You may be sure THAT is the heart of the problem. If those "pious" people really wanted to change the system they would assure women of equality both in the marriage and in the courts. In marriage women are slaves; in the courts women are stripped of their community property.
    The bigots' need to maintain a system of dominance and subservience is at the core of the issue! Ignore all of that political and/or religious rhetoric! Let's create a democracy with ALL first-class citizens! I challenge you to do it.

  65. Witches Brew on 12 Mar 2004

    Here it the core of the problem, as stated by the poster above:
    "I wonder if they really hate the idea of gay marriage or the idea that marraige could actually be an egalitarian institution. My feeling is that it goes beyond gays and their rights but goes straight to the heart of domination. Marriage hasn't changed for centuries- it's still an institution of slavery that gays threaten to destroy. Of course these bigots hate the idea!"
    I have been wanting to express the same idea myself. You may be sure THAT is the heart of the problem. If those "pious" people really wanted to change the system they would assure women of equality both in the marriage and in the courts. In marriage women are slaves; in the courts women are stripped of their community property.
    The bigots' need to maintain a system of dominance and subservience is at the core of the issue! Ignore all of that political and/or religious rhetoric! Let's create a democracy with ALL first-class citizens! I challenge you to do it.

  66. Witches Brew on 12 Mar 2004

    Here it the core of the problem, as stated by the poster above:
    "I wonder if they really hate the idea of gay marriage or the idea that marraige could actually be an egalitarian institution. My feeling is that it goes beyond gays and their rights but goes straight to the heart of domination. Marriage hasn't changed for centuries- it's still an institution of slavery that gays threaten to destroy. Of course these bigots hate the idea!"
    I have been wanting to express the same idea myself. You may be sure THAT is the heart of the problem. If those "pious" people really wanted to change the system they would assure women of equality both in the marriage and in the courts. In marriage women are slaves; in the courts women are stripped of their community property.
    The bigots' need to maintain a system of dominance and subservience is at the core of the issue! Ignore all of that political and/or religious rhetoric! Let's create a democracy with ALL first-class citizens! I challenge you to do it.

  67. Witches Brew on 12 Mar 2004

    Quotable quotes:
    "Marriage is a HUMAN right. As far as I can see, gays are human. Get real, people. What are you afraid of? I would be proud to marry any gay couple who came to me. I am on YOUR side."
    ----Rev. Angel Goulet
    "Between San Francisco, Massachusetts, New Mexico, ... This isn't going away. It may take a while longer before most states have it, but gay marriage is coming, and there's nothing they can do to stop it anymore. It's got the momentum now."
    --by No One in Particular
    (Comment: ...'NO ONE' has made a powerful statement; now we have added Portland--so keep going...there are many other states...)
    "How silly we were, so many years ago, to use colored people as slaves. we look back and think, how could someone do that to another human? couldn't they see, they were all the same as us? they have feelings, they feel love, they feel pain. just like everyone else. we look back and think we were stupid for being racist. Yet to this day, people refuse to accept Gay and Lesbian marriages. You know, in a few hundred years, when being Gay marriage is encouraged and not shunned, we will probably look back and think, God, we were stupid."
    --by Witch Baby
    (Comment: right on!, Witch Baby)
    Keep going with your enlightened comments. Maybe we can help some people to NOT fall into the witches brew!

    Regarding voting on this issue: Oh, sure...while we are at it, why don't we have a vote on whether or not a black person can drink from the same water fountain as a white person? Do you see how retarded that idea is??? Even from bigots I expect more intelligence!

  68. Witches Brew on 12 Mar 2004

    Quotable quotes:
    "Marriage is a HUMAN right. As far as I can see, gays are human. Get real, people. What are you afraid of? I would be proud to marry any gay couple who came to me. I am on YOUR side."
    ----Rev. Angel Goulet
    "Between San Francisco, Massachusetts, New Mexico, ... This isn't going away. It may take a while longer before most states have it, but gay marriage is coming, and there's nothing they can do to stop it anymore. It's got the momentum now."
    --by No One in Particular
    (Comment: ...'NO ONE' has made a powerful statement; now we have added Portland--so keep going...there are many other states...)
    "How silly we were, so many years ago, to use colored people as slaves. we look back and think, how could someone do that to another human? couldn't they see, they were all the same as us? they have feelings, they feel love, they feel pain. just like everyone else. we look back and think we were stupid for being racist. Yet to this day, people refuse to accept Gay and Lesbian marriages. You know, in a few hundred years, when being Gay marriage is encouraged and not shunned, we will probably look back and think, God, we were stupid."
    --by Witch Baby
    (Comment: right on!, Witch Baby)
    Keep going with your enlightened comments. Maybe we can help some people to NOT fall into the witches brew!

    Regarding voting on this issue: Oh, sure...while we are at it, why don't we have a vote on whether or not a black person can drink from the same water fountain as a white person? Do you see how retarded that idea is??? Even from bigots I expect more intelligence!

  69. Witches Brew on 12 Mar 2004

    Quotable quotes:
    "Marriage is a HUMAN right. As far as I can see, gays are human. Get real, people. What are you afraid of? I would be proud to marry any gay couple who came to me. I am on YOUR side."
    ----Rev. Angel Goulet
    "Between San Francisco, Massachusetts, New Mexico, ... This isn't going away. It may take a while longer before most states have it, but gay marriage is coming, and there's nothing they can do to stop it anymore. It's got the momentum now."
    --by No One in Particular
    (Comment: ...'NO ONE' has made a powerful statement; now we have added Portland--so keep going...there are many other states...)
    "How silly we were, so many years ago, to use colored people as slaves. we look back and think, how could someone do that to another human? couldn't they see, they were all the same as us? they have feelings, they feel love, they feel pain. just like everyone else. we look back and think we were stupid for being racist. Yet to this day, people refuse to accept Gay and Lesbian marriages. You know, in a few hundred years, when being Gay marriage is encouraged and not shunned, we will probably look back and think, God, we were stupid."
    --by Witch Baby
    (Comment: right on!, Witch Baby)
    Keep going with your enlightened comments. Maybe we can help some people to NOT fall into the witches brew!

    Regarding voting on this issue: Oh, sure...while we are at it, why don't we have a vote on whether or not a black person can drink from the same water fountain as a white person? Do you see how retarded that idea is??? Even from bigots I expect more intelligence!

  70. Witches Brew on 13 Mar 2004

    More GAYS need to seek public office so that, in the future, homophobes and/or bigots could not so easily manipulate state-sanctioned bigotry and discrimination, which puts to shame THE LAND OF THE FREE, in the eyes of the world! Remember, folks, THE WORLD is watching.

    The next time you stand up and say the pledge think about this issue of Gay Marriage as you say, "with liberty and justice for all!"

    JUSTICE: Where is the justice in this issue? There is about as much justice for GAYS as there is for women. So ALL NON-GAY WOMEN I challenge you to stand up and fight for THE RIGHTS of others as you would for yourselves. Be brave; speak out!

    Don't fall into the Witches Brew!

  71. Witches Brew on 13 Mar 2004

    "Mother charged in Caesarean row"

    Please drop the whole issue with GAYS so that we can all join together against this atrocious, barbaric Utah "justice system" insanity.

    Today it is a troubled young woman in Utah; tomorrow it could be YOUR daughter.

    Women are losing ALL rights over their own bodies and 99% of the people do not realize what is coming down the pike, as we speak.

    Even if the young woman signed a paper in the hospital, anyone who has ever had any significant reason to go to a hospital knows that you are likely to sign anything put in front of you, because you are not feeling good and you TRUST the hospital personel not to hurt you.

    I am highly educated and I am all too aware of the atrocious things happening in the medical system today. I have almost lost my own life twice, because of medical negligence. I believe the young woman did not, knowingly, refuse the C-section.

    Isn't the loss of her child sufficent punishment? How cruel and barbaric human beings can be toward other, vulnerable human beings. Sometimes we are far worse than the animals. In fact, let us not insult THE OTHER ANIMALS.

    Let us reserve our outrage and angry to fight against this injustice toward a young woman who, obviously, was in great emotional distress.

  72. Witches Brew on 14 Mar 2004

    For a quick LINK to information about events in Boston:
    http://www.equalmarriage.org/index.php

  73. Witches Brew on 14 Mar 2004

    "Boston Catholic Archbishop Blasts Gay Marriage" Whew!
    The Archbishop has fallen into the Witches Brew!
    Actually it is a powerful way to move people's attention AWAY FROM the horrible corruption in the church.
    Psychology mixed with politics!
    Maybe he should spend time cleaning his own house rather than intruding in someone else's like a bull in a china shop.

    But Bork, former Supreme Court nominee, predicted that eventually, the Supreme Court will "go in the direction of" the Massachusetts court, and that gay marriage would become legal NATIONALLY.

    Of course, that is the way it should be. Otherwise, the world will be LAUGHING at those silly, Americans who are arrogantly preaching democracy and equality to the rest of the world and, AT THE SAME TIME, writing discrimation into their own constitution! How ridiculous. Actually, I don't think we are THAT stupid. At least, I hope not.

    Come on friends, relatives and acquaintances whereever you are, in any STATE, go to the their website below and support Mass. NOW.
    http://www.equalmarriage.org/whatyou.php

    We can be less fearful and more enlightened!
    Do it NOW!

  74. steve on 17 Mar 2004

    I can't believe this is happening in my state. Why do gay liberals have to flaunt this nasty crap in front of everyone keep it behind closed doors like everyone else

  75. Witches Brew on 27 Mar 2004

    Steve you said, "I cannot believe this is happening in MY state."

    Thank God, Steve, the state does not BELONG to you! It belongs to everyone--including gays--all of them!

    What is nasty about a state putting aside DISCRIMINATION and the FORFEITURE of all kinds of RIGHTS, to recognize the EQUALITY and JUSTICE of gay marriage?

    Anything else is a terrible INJUSTICE to our neighbors, friends, and relatives--that is, gays whereever they may be. We are all connected whether or not we want to believe it.

    I am sure you have encountered gays though you may not have known it. They deserve the same rights as you! What makes you think you are so grand as to deserve more? Anything else belongs to medieval thinking!

    There are many like me. I am NOT a gay liberal. I am a moderate liberal coming from a very conservative background. I am a heterosexual woman who believes in "equality for all" with all of my heart and soul. Let's not mouth the words if we don't believe it. Moreover, my belief is not grounded in ignorance. I am better educated than about 95% of ALL of the people in the USA. In fact, that is a conservative figure.

    Why not do some deep thinking and try to get to the heart of your prejudice. If you do, it might not be all that difficult to root it out! DO IT NOW!

    One by one every person in this country could examine their thinking, determine where it comes from, and make the changes to be more humane...and less discriminating, toward other people.

    Life is very short. Where does it get us to bash other humans and try to deprive them of a full life?

  76. Witches Brew on 27 Mar 2004

    WORDS TO LIVE BY

    Accept that some days you're the pigeon, and some days you're the statue.

    Always keep your words soft and sweet, just in case you have to eat them.

    Always read stuff that will make you look good if you die in the middle of it.

    Drive carefully. It's not only cars that can be recalled by their maker.

    Eat a live toad in the morning and nothing worse will happen to you for the rest of the day.

    If you can't be kind, at least have the decency to be vague.

    If you lend someone $20, and never see that person again, it was probably worth it.

    It may be that your sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others.

    Never buy a car you can't push.

    Never put both feet in your mouth at the same time, because then you don't have a leg to stand on.

    Nobody cares if you can't dance well. Just get up and dance.

    The early worm gets eaten by the bird, so sleep late.

    When everything's coming your way, you're in the wrong lane.

    Birthdays are good for you; the more you have, the longer you live.

    You may be only one person in the world, but you may also be the world to one person.

    Some mistakes are too much fun to only make once.

    Don't cry because it's over; smile because it happened.

    We could learn a lot from crayons: some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, some have weird names, and all are different colors, but they all have to learn to live in the same box.

    A truly happy person is one who can enjoy the scenery on a detour.

    Happiness comes through doors you didn't even know you left open.

    Have an awesome day, and know that someone has thought about you today....

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